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What Gets in the Way - Diana Clark

The following talk was given by Diana Clark at Insight Meditation Center in Redwood City, CA on July 30, 2024. Please visit the website www.audiodharma.org for more information.

What Gets in the Way

Good evening, welcome. Welcome. So tonight, I'm going to continue on this series I've been doing on the introduction to mindfulness. This is not exactly mindfulness I'm going to be talking about, but it's such an important teaching that's part of the whole picture of mindfulness practice. And that is to talk about what gets in the way. Like, why is it sometimes hard to be mindful? Why is it that we can't be present all the time?

Many of us begin a meditation practice with this hope, with this idea that we'll find more freedom and ease in our lives, and then we discover that it turns out not to be so easy. So it can be helpful to discover, or to look into, or investigate, or be curious about what it is that's getting in the way of more freedom and ease and peace, these kinds of things. So part of finding our way to more freedom and ease is running about what gets in the way.

So I'm going to start with an analogy, and that is this analogy that the Buddha gives of when it rains, especially in my mind I'm thinking of the monsoon season in India. When it rains on the hills, it's just natural that the water rolls downstream and it goes from little rivulets, maybe to streams, to rivers, to the ocean. And it only goes one direction, right? It only goes downhill. Of course, you don't need me to tell you this; we all know this. It just goes downhill.

But when we think about rivers or streams, often what we notice is that there's a bunch of boulders or even banks or something that's in the way. It's not like the water just goes straight down in the most efficient and fast way; that only exists in amusement parks, right? But instead, the river is encountering these boulders and then turning and encountering maybe fallen branches and fallen tree trunks and moving around them. It's not a problem that the boulders are there. It's not a problem that the tree trunks are there. It's just what the water is encountering as it's continuing on its way downhill. And in some way, we might even say this water is having this intimate contact with the boulder or tree trunk or whatever is finding there, and then it just goes around or goes over or does whatever it does.

So in some ways, we can think about our practice in a similar way. That mindfulness practice has this momentum; it goes a certain direction, and it encounters obstructions, boulders, tree trunks on its way towards the ocean of... I don't know, maybe I'm taking this analogy too far, but maybe the ocean is vastness, some real peace and ease.

So I appreciate very much that the Buddhist tradition just recognized these, what we might call boulders in the way. The Buddha talked about them quite a number of times thousands of years ago. They were recognizing, oh yeah, it's not so easy to always be mindful. It's not so easy to be consistent with this practice. It's not so easy to always be in the present moment or be doing loving-kindness, whatever one's practice is. And the Buddha, he gave teachings about this.

So one way that we might consider these boulders and tree trunks in this analogy that I gave is as hindrances, things that are hindering, obstructing, or getting in the way of this movement of the water. It doesn't prevent the water from going; it just impacts the water. The water goes around or something like this. So this idea of hindrances, another different analogy, but another way to consider these things that are getting in the way, so to speak, is these hindrances are sometimes called veiling factors. That is, they cover something, they hide or conceal or obstruct what's actually happening in the present moment or what's to be done next or just get in the way of a clarity, any kind of clarity. Clarity about anything, get in the way of seeing ourselves clearly, seeing other people clearly, seeing the situation clearly.

And then these obstructions, these hindrances, these veiling factors, it's not just in meditation practice. In meditation practice, we see them more clearly. Often, we're using the meditation as a laboratory to see and understand what goes on in our minds. But they show up in our work, our professions, our relationships, our creative projects, or service projects that we might have, and as well as in meditation. I mean, it makes sense, right? Because if something were to only happen in meditation, that would suggest that there was like a different mind and body that meditates than the one that goes to work and has a family and has relationships. It's just one mind and body. So of course, things show up in meditation are actually showing up in other areas of our lives and hindering in some respects. So meditation is an opportunity for us to explore these.

In these teachings, there's a way in which this is maybe simplified and classified, like all the things that get in the way. I don't know if that's the best expression, "get in the way," but I'll work with it for now. And so there's this typical list, you won't be surprised to hear about this, that there's a list of these hindrances. I'm going to talk about them a little bit at a high level, and then I'm going to talk about one in particular. I'll do some little meditation there in the middle this evening.

So in general, these hindrances, we can say there's two that are about pushing or pulling. Like this idea of leaning forward and like, "go away." Like this push away kind of thing, aversion. "I don't want it, go away." Or there's things that we're pulling, we want more of it. Kind of like energetically we're doing this, maybe even literally. So pushing and pulling: "I want more," "I want less," aversion, desire.

Two are more about energy. "I have too much energy," feeling restless and fidgety, and "the last thing I want to do is sit still here and I want to get up and run away or do anything, pick up my phone," or whatever it might be. Or the opposite is like, "Oh my goodness, I can barely stay awake," kind of falling asleep. Too much energy, this restlessness, or this not enough energy, this sleepiness or torpor.

And then the fifth one, we can think about it as more like a spinning, like not quite sure what to do. This vacillation, this hesitation. "Maybe I'll do this. Well, no, actually, maybe I'll do that. I actually, I'm not sure. Maybe this thing over here is better. Well, maybe that's over there. Maybe I should do this." This hesitation, this not clarity about what to do, and ends up not doing anything but instead just kind of spinning, spinning our wheels, so to speak. And this fifth one was called doubt. And I'm going to talk a little bit more about that this evening because I think it's so powerful and it's so insidious. It's so often veils so many different things and likes to masquerade and camouflage itself.

So I'm talking about these hindrances: pushing and pulling, too much energy, not enough energy, or spinning. Kind of like Diana's versions of describing these hindrances, but they are spectra. They occur on a spectrum. It's not like binary, yes, it's there, or no, it's not there. And one thing, as we begin to meditate more and more, and as the mind and the body really start to settle, we start to find more and more subtle versions of these hindrances. Things that you didn't even know were there, didn't even know were kind of operating underneath maybe the usual way of seeing things or doing things.

This also means, this idea that it's not just binary on-off, present-not present. It's really subtle to really obvious. I think we all have this experience of sometimes feeling restless and just getting up when we're at home and not finishing the duration in which we thought we were going to meditate. But then we start to see on a really subtle level, there's a way in which the mind can always be looking for something, looking for entertainment or looking for the next thing or what's happening next. It doesn't want to be just with what is; it wants to be titillated in some kind of way. So that's a more subtle version. And then there can be even a really, really subtle version of that when the mind is really quiet in some deep concentration states. We can sometimes see how the mind is sometimes very quietly probing, trying to find something.

And so the way that we work with them, of course, isn't... I mean, we have to kind of respect that they arise and they pass away. And sometimes they're obvious and sometimes they aren't.

Guided Meditation

I'd like to do a little guided meditation where we'll explore these a little bit. Again, I'll just say, all of us have all five of these. That's just the way it is. It's part of the human experience. And I'll talk a little bit more about that after the guided meditation. But often, many of us have one that tends to be a little bit more predominant, that tends to be something that shows up more regularly. And also to be clear, there can be all five at the same time, too. We call this a hindrance storm. But there's also, as I said, can be a way in which there's that one that's the most common, like the mind and the body's favorite way to not be present. And I'm using this word "favorite" with air quotes.

So again, just these five, if you don't know them, and I'm using this kind of language because I'd like us to feel into the experience of them as opposed to getting too much about the concept or the notion of them. So there's pushing and pulling, or we could also say leaning forward, which is like a desire, or leaning back, which is "I don't want it." Or there's pushing, "I don't want it," or pulling, "I do want it," these two opposites.

Or this with energy, maybe there's this restlessness, this feeling like "I want to be anywhere but here," or this strong sense of "it's really important that I take care of whatever it is we feel like we have to take care of." Or this sleepiness, like as soon as we start to settle down, the mind wants to fall asleep.

And then the fifth one, maybe I'll say a few more words here, which I'm calling "spinning," is this hesitation. It's about, "Okay, so maybe I should be doing mindfulness practice, and we'll do mindfulness of breathing. Yeah, but my breath, I don't know. I shouldn't be with the breath. Maybe okay, I'm going to do mindfulness of sounds, but gee, I don't really like those sounds. And then, you know, maybe my breath is more stable now. I'll do mindful breath. Well, yeah, I heard that loving-kindness is good. I'm going to do loving-kindness practice." So there's this way in which we just kind of don't quite settle down because we don't really decide on the practice. Instead, there's this hesitation or vacillation or not a commitment. Like, "Okay, this is what I'm going to do." Instead, we just spend all our time trying to think about or consider or philosophize about what we're going to do.

Okay, so with that as an introduction, let's do a little bit of a guided meditation here.

Taking a meditation posture, a posture that expresses your intention to be present and also has some ease, has some uprightness and some relaxation.

And feeling the pressure on the body from the sitting surface, whether that's a chair or a cushion. Feeling the contact with the sitting surface. We're here right now.

And then maybe just do a general body scan. Is there any obvious areas of tension or holding or tightness? It can be that bringing attention to those areas allows a little more ease or softness.

And then letting the attention rest on the sensations of breathing. Whether you feel or sense the experience of breathing in the belly or in the chest or in the nose, just feeling the experience of breathing.

Giving yourself over to the experience of breathing. What does it feel like to have an in-breath? What does it feel like to have an out-breath? And what about the transition between in-breaths and out-breaths? What do they feel like?

And we'll stay here for a little bit, resting awareness on the sensations of breathing.

When the mind wanders, just very simply, gently begin again with the sensations of breathing.

The five hindrances, as the tradition holds them: pushing away an experience, including thoughts; pulling towards, wanting more of; having too much energy, restlessness in the body or in the mind; having little energy, feeling sleepy or foggy, lethargic in the body or in the mind; or this sense of hesitation, vacillation, spinning. Which one of these is tending to come up as we meditate? Maybe you see all five, maybe only one.

So resting attention on the sensations of breathing. And then when you notice that you are no longer on the breath, be a little bit curious. Is there some pushing or pulling or energy or spinning? And then begin again with the sensations of breathing.

If you recognize one of these five, can you just allow it to be there? This is what too much energy feels like, for example. This is what aversion feels like. And then come back to the sensations of breathing.

Is it the same hindrance all the time? Maybe it's changing. Can you notice the absence of any of these five? Maybe there's pulling but no pushing. Or maybe there's both.

Reflections and Q&A

I'll say that when I first learned about these hindrances, I felt such a relief. I had taken this introduction to meditation class and I thought that I was the only one that couldn't keep my mind settled. I felt relieved to discover, you know, for all these thousands of years, countless individuals have done this practice and have had these experiences. Because it can be easy to think that we can't meditate because our mind wanders too much, or we might think that we can't idealize the teachers or the teachings in such a way that we think that nobody else is having any trouble with meditation ever. Or I think, you know, that idealize what we see around us, people are sitting quietly, and to think that, "Oh, I'm the only one that's feeling restless or sleepy or has doubt or something like this."

But the hindrances, we don't have to take them personally. They don't mean anything about you as a person. They don't mean anything about you as a meditator. This is just what happens when people sit down to meditate. This is what happens. These hindrances arise. And sure, they abate. And with more meditation experience, maybe the severity and the duration of them changes. But I think until... in fact, I know I would say that a person who's completely awakened is the only person who doesn't have hindrances. Instead, there's always a certain way in which we are working with these different energies or these forces in the mind.

We might even say meditation practice is hindrance practice. Of course it is. We don't talk about it that way; maybe it's not as fun and interesting, but of course it is. Especially the concentration practice is hindrance practice, working with them. And then maybe also say that, you know, we want to have respect for these forces in the mind that are making it difficult for us to be present. Because meditation, it touches some of the things that are really deep inside of us and that are important to us and that maybe we are identified with or we feel like are a core aspect of who we are or what makes us tick or something like this. Maybe some of that kind of stuff gets touched in meditation. So there's responses to that, and the responses often are a form of a hindrance, like preventing us from getting deeper and deeper into there.

So there might be these challenges that are getting touched into, like these unresolved places, these places of pain or uncertainty or maybe deep doubt or this idea of our purpose or the value we have or these types of things might get touched into with meditation. And then there's a hindrance that can show up as a way when something inside of us is like, "Oh, no, no, that's going to be painful. I don't want to go there." That's not necessarily a conscious thought so much, but often it's kind of what's underneath these hindrances, not always. So we want to have a lot of respect for them and care for them instead of thinking like, "Oh, I have to get rid of this thing."

Maybe just like the boulders in that analogy that I gave at the beginning, it's just part of practice. You know, we just encounter these boulders. And as it turns out, these boulders, so to speak, turn into doorways. Absolutely. It's an integral part of practice for us to start to see what is getting in the way, what is it that affects our practice, and then we just bring mindfulness to it. So we start thinking like mindfulness is going this way, just like a river does. It encounters a boulder, so then we just turn like, "Okay, nope, now I'm going to be mindful of this experience of this pushing and pulling or the energy or something like this." So in that way, it's not a problem. It's no longer a hindrance. It just becomes the object of meditation, object of mindfulness.

So now I'd like to open it up and I'd like to ask you guys, how was that guided meditation? Is there a particular one that you felt more obviously or more often or more readily? Or anybody would like to share? Or maybe you're like, "I don't know." It's perfectly fine, whatever experience you had.

Questioner 1: Jim, I found that when I really let go of efforting, it helps me feel very clear. 'Cause sometimes I try to effort in the right ways to do the right things, like trying to be mindful. But when I let go of all everything and just kind of just be still and be natural, that's when I feel the most mindful and clear.

Diana Clark: I see. And what helps you remember, like, "Oh, yeah, maybe I can lessen up on the effort here"?

Questioner 1: Just to let go, yeah. Just to consciously stop trying. Even in the right ways. If I think it's a right way to try, don't even try. Just be natural. And when I feel like I'm in my natural state, I always seem my most mindful.

Diana Clark: Yeah, thank you. And this is such an interesting place to practice. It's kind of, I would say, like the art of practice. Like how much effort? How much is too much and how much is too little so that we just go off daydreaming? Yeah, great. Thank you.

Questioner 2: Yeah, I wonder about your thoughts on working with sleepiness. Um, especially because your awareness of the sleepiness itself decreases the sleepier you get.

Diana Clark: That's right.

Questioner 2: And so at a certain point, you can no longer be aware that you're sleepy. I mean, maybe in a subtle way you can, but yeah, I'm curious about your perspective on working with that.

Diana Clark: Yeah, and I appreciate so much what you're pointing to here. Because one way is to be aware of the experiences, and you will fall asleep if you do this. And maybe that's okay. Maybe part of being aware of sleepiness is to see how the images... I don't know exactly how it is for you, but I've done a lot of work with this, and how the hypnagogic, like the images kind of get a little swirly and they start to get a little dreamy, and then maybe the shoulders are heavy and the eyes are heavy, and then you often will fall asleep and then you wake up like, "Oh yeah, I was supposed to do that meditation thing." And then you're just following it. It can be fascinating just to watch that experience. That's a legitimate form of practice. So there's a way, and often we can feel like, "Oh, I shouldn't be sleepy," and it can be a hindrance. But if you're just being mindful of it and exploring and investigating, it doesn't have to be a hindrance.

But sleepiness... I will also say a few words about how to not be so sleepy, not fall asleep. And maybe you know these, but I'll mention a few of them. First of all, I'll say this is very common. I think in today's society, especially, right? We're accustomed to like, go, go, go, do, do, do. And then the only time that we kind of sleep is when we just relax. And then when we relax, the mind associates that with sleeping. And B, we're sleep-deprived very often. And sometimes we just actually should sleep rather than meditate because if you're really sleep-deprived, you can't meditate your way through very well.

So here we go. One is to meditate with your eyes open, you know, down at an angle, so letting the light in. And that kind of helps remind you that you're here. Two is, like I was leading us on mindfulness on the sensations of breathing, but you could give the mind something a little bit busier to do that keeps it more awake. So for example, it could be mindfulness of the sensations of the lips touching, then the sensation of the seat against the body, and what the hands are touching, and then what the feet are touching. And you do maybe one second each and just kind of rotate through lips, seat, hands, feet, and then just be going through this. And so that can give the mind a little bit more something to do.

Something else that can be helpful, some people have talked about imagining a really bright light. I haven't myself had success with this, maybe other people do. I offer this in case it's something that's really helpful. Like, in the same way that you're less likely to fall asleep if you're looking at a lamp or something like that. Some people stand up for their meditation period. You're less likely to fall asleep if you're standing. And maybe I'll stop there. But those are some things to do. Great. Thank you.

Questioner 3: Thanks. Um, I have an answer to the original question of reflecting on the meditation. Also, something to the question that was just asked that's worked for me is improving my posture. I actually didn't do that this time and kind of suffered for it, so that's something I'll be better about next time. Like the straighter your back is, the more awake I am. But if I slouch, then I often drift off. Great. Thank you. A reflection was that I tried to not ruminate too much on whenever I got distracted by thought, and not be too hard on myself and be like, "Oh, you're bad at meditating. You should be better by now. You've been doing this a while." And kind of just breathe it out, so to speak. I guess to the five hindrances point, what I noticed the most was probably doubt in that sense. But I tried to not sit on it for too long and kind of just say, "Oh, that was just a thought," you know, on with it and just focus back on whatever the anchor was.

Diana Clark: Nice. Very nice. I'm going to talk a little bit more about doubt, and including just recognizing thoughts are just thoughts. Yeah, great.

Questioner 4: I noticed something, it was very, very nice. And I noticed, I don't quite know, maybe it's aversion. It's very subtle what's happening. So, you know, let's see, like, I'm like, "Let's see what's going on here," when we're trying to be on the breath. And then there's this quality of like, "Give me a break. I want to do what I want to do." And it's a little bit like, has the quality of maybe a little bit resistance, even rebellious like, "No." Um, it's good for you to want this, but and then next thing that happens is there's a little bit of, you know, I'm somewhere else. So the mind goes, and it's not because it wants to, but because there's maybe what Matt said, it's like efforting, "Let me do this thing." So it's kind of like, I don't know what it is, maybe aversion, right? Or like, not wanting...

Diana Clark: Can you tell me how it feels in the body with this tension?

Questioner 4: This tension, like I almost feels like we don't want this. This is a little like artificial right now. It's not, it's the quality of just overall not clear aware, but like a little bit of some kind of constraint or tension in the body. So not relaxed, this kind of thing.

Diana Clark: So it can be restlessness, it also could be doubt to the sense of, "Yeah, maybe is this really worth the effort? Is this really what I should be doing now?"

Questioner 4: I have this memory of me as a child, not really, when somebody is not convincing, the teacher or the parent, and I really like, "Okay, just don't buy into this." And then I'm going to do my thing and we're not going to be on the breath because something about it is fake. So that's what happens, maybe doubt. I don't know.

Diana Clark: And do you stay? So then the mind wanders, but then do you come back?

Questioner 4: Then I come back. And maybe the coming back is a little like again, the way I come back, there's a quality of like, "Let's do it," and then the mind is, "I don't know, something is not quite nice here." So I really like, I'm curious about this moment and I try to be gentle, right? And try to be like a good parent, but I guess it takes time. The mind needs to be reassured.

Diana Clark: Because it occurs to me, I don't know if this is actually right, but it occurs to me that there's like a little bit of trust is needed. Like, "Oh, yeah, okay, this is contrived, it is artificial, but it is something that is going to take me a direction that I want to go."

Questioner 4: Yeah, that is I think that's what there's a little bit of lack of that. Lack of like, "Yes, I am." And that's where I'm thinking about it, me as a child. So, you know, I don't know if I can trust you guys. So this is interesting. This is a very interesting because I'm curious what happens, why most of the time this is the same pattern. Maybe it's some doubt. Thank you. It was very nice, very helpful.

On Doubt

I want to talk a little bit about doubt, just because I think that desire and aversion... maybe I'll just say a little thing about desire. Desire itself is not a problem. We're talking about desire when it's a hindrance, when it's getting in the way of what you want to do. Of course, we need a certain amount of desire to fuel our movement towards greater and greater peace and freedom and ease and these kinds of things. So I don't want to say that all desire is a terrible thing and we shouldn't have any. It's just often sensual desire, this pursuit of pleasure, pleasure, pleasure, which gets in the way of our meditation practice, our spiritual practice.

So doubt is this feeling of hesitation, or maybe this vacillation or this wavering, or maybe even resistance. We might say this resistance to practice where we end up not going anywhere. Like I was saying earlier, we're kind of spinning because we have this endless speculation where we can't quite decide, as I said earlier, what practice should I do, or even this feeling of "I don't feel like it." Sometimes doubt can show up that way.

So doubt is an expected and natural part of practice. And I appreciate this so much that this practice is about, you know, "come and see." Come and see for yourself, experience for yourself. It's not "come and believe." It's not like, "Here, we're just going to believe this and you'll be fine. Go on your way." It's this invitation to experience for yourself and to explore for yourself and to see if these teachings are true for yourself. And so, of course, there's going to be a certain amount of doubt. Like, "I'm not sure. I haven't experienced some of these things that are being spoken about or that are being pointed to." So it's a natural part of practice.

And I will also say, there can be really healthy doubt too. The obvious ways in which there's healthy doubt in our life is when you get this email from the bank out of the blue: "Oh, we're changing our systems. Please send us your passwords, your social security number," or you know, something like this, right? That's natural to be like, "I'm a little suspicious about this. I don't think so." So there's that kind of doubt. It's perfectly healthy and natural and will help us to examine things or to really engage with like, "Wait, is this really the bank?" and look at the email address it's from or the URL or something like this.

But it's also healthy to not just believe something because somebody told us, or not to just disbelieve something because somebody told us. It's really about finding our own way and finding our practice, finding our own version of it. Each one of us, practice will unfold a little bit differently. I know that I used to think that what I was experiencing was what everybody was experiencing. And it wasn't until years ago, I did some small groups where the teacher would put us into groups and we would talk about something or other, and I realized, "Oh, there's lots of different ways to consider this or to experience this." And that was like a big eye-opener for me because in my mind, I was thinking like, "Oh, the teacher said this, so the way that I interpreted it was the only interpretation." But of course, that isn't true. So each one of us will be bringing hopefully all of ourselves to this practice, and that means that it will all kind of unfold in a certain flavor, in a certain way, a certain manner.

So doubt is to have some curiosity about what this is and not necessarily just to believe everything and to swallow everything, but instead to learn something about ourselves, to learn about what it is that we are unsure about and what are those things that we are just believing and assuming that what we are thinking or interpreting is the only way. So doubt is definitely a healthy part of practice, just like desire is a very healthy part of a normal human life. There's desire that gets in the way, and there's doubt that gets in the way. And so part of practice is to be discerning and notice when is this helpful and when is it getting in the way.

We might say that healthy doubt asks this question: "Does this teaching or does this practice, does this help? Does this bring me closer or increase the amount of freedom and ease and peace and well-being?" That's the direction we're going. And even sometimes some teachings are uncomfortable and some practices are uncomfortable, absolutely. But there's often a part of us that recognizes like, "Oh yeah, it's uncomfortable because it's this greater self-understanding. I didn't know that part about myself and I'm kind of disappointed now that I see that about myself." And that's really uncomfortable. But there's a part of us that recognizes even though it's uncomfortable, it's pointing us or creating the conditions or creating a foundation that there can be greater peace and ease. So healthy doubt is asking this question: "Does this help me? Is this supporting greater freedom? Is this supporting greater ease, peace, well-being?"

Because when it's unhelpful, as I said, we may be just lost. We may be lost wondering, "I don't know, these teachings Diana is talking about thousands of years ago... maybe they're completely irrelevant because they're so old." Maybe there's a part of us that might be thinking, "What does that have to do with my life today?" Or, "How can I... what the Buddha was talking about back then, modern life is so different." Or maybe we have this idea, "Yeah, these practices or these teachings, they sound nice, but can I really do them? Maybe other people can do them, but can I do them in a way that's what's expected or in a way that is a support for my practice?" So we might have doubt about our capabilities, and we might have doubt about the teachings, and of course, we might have doubt about the teacher. How do we know that this person who's currently sitting right here knows what she's talking about? Or the Buddha or any book you read or dharma talk you listen to, right? We might have like, "I don't know." So it's perfectly legitimate to have some doubts. We don't have to believe everything all at once.

So how can we practice with it? One way to recognize when doubt is up and running, so to speak, is when it's really strong. There's this way that it's experienced as being very authoritative. And there's this way it can be really powerful and it starts questioning everything we're doing. And it starts vacillating or hesitating or not having any confidence in what we're doing, either like, "That's a waste of time. That's not right. You can't do it anyway," you know, these types of things. And often, the way that I'm vocalizing this is like clear sentences and saying out loud, but often there are quiet, niggling little voices in the back of the mind that might even be familiar. They might be showing up in all areas of our lives. So it sounds like it must be true because we hear it so often. But doubt is just another hindrance. It doesn't mean that it's true that we have these questions. We're just questioning.

And it may show up as not being able to make a commitment. Like, "Okay, I'm going to sit for so long," or "I'm going to go on a retreat, read a book, listen to Dharma talks, come here to IMC," whatever it is. And we're like, "Yeah, I'll just do it when I feel like it," which is a legitimate way of practice, but that's different than making a commitment. It's also this sense of while you're sitting, "There's got to be another way. I'm sure there's an easier way. There's got to be shortcuts." And to be sure, there's a whole group of neuroscientists that are trying to find shortcuts for a meditation practice. And when it's strong, we don't do things that are beneficial for us. We're actively undermining ourselves and we're giving up on things unnecessarily or giving up prematurely before the practice has really had an opportunity to show some of the fruit.

Okay, so how can we practice with this? One, just recognize the wavering, the hesitation, the vacillation, the sense of spinning, the sense of not wanting to make a commitment, this kind of being a little bit disengaged. And you can just even say those words, "Yep, there's wavering here. There's this uncertainty, this vacillation. There's confusion," or whatever the word might be. Just to recognize that. And then all of a sudden, we can have mindfulness of that experience and we're in the practice as opposed to it being a hindrance, something that's in the way. It just starts to become the practice.

We might even, depends on what else is happening and the surrounding situations or the conditions, notice the fear that is often underneath doubt. And then we can work with that. Maybe recognize that and maybe even just name it. And can we feel the fear in a way that's supportive, not in a way that's going to tip us over into overwhelm? But like, "Oh yeah, there's this feeling that if I stay with this practice, I'm going to lose my important relationships, or I'm not going to be as productive at work because I'm going to spend time meditating, or I'm going to lose my competitive edge," or whatever it might be.

So recognize it, and sometimes that might be enough. Is there a way that we can allow the experience to be there? "Yep, there's a lot of hesitation here." And one way we can allow it to be there is to feel it in the body. One way of feeling it in the body is to get out of the abstract thinking and the philosophizing and the trying to figure it out to find the right answer, which you know, we could spend our whole life doing that. But to kind of interrupt the momentum of that kind of thinking and figuring out and trying to get the perfect practice or the perfect answer, feel in the body the bodily experience of restlessness or uncomfortableness or this feeling of trying to figure things out, which often is associated maybe with a confusion. "Like, I don't know, I got to figure it out." And how does that feel? I noticed when I said that, I leaned forward a little bit. There's a way, there's an "I got to get it. I got to go find the answer. It's not here, it's elsewhere." So there can be this uneasiness or a sense of heaviness or this way in which there's maybe not a sense of uprightness, but instead there's a tension and a sense of pushing, maybe. So one way to allow the experience to be there is to feel it in the body.

And the second is to remember that thoughts are just thoughts. And what are thoughts? They are insubstantial, ephemeral. They're just coming and going and coming and going. The same way we imagine pink elephants is the same way we imagine a better practice. It's the same activity, right? It's completely in the mind, imagined. And sometimes that can be helpful to say like, "Okay, it's just thoughts. Don't worry, you'll have another thought another second from now." So that's two ways we can allow the experience to be there: feel it in the body and kind of pull the rug out from under the authority of thoughts. Thoughts are just thoughts. We don't have to believe them. We don't have to let them push us around.

And the third thing that we can do to work with doubt is to apply an antidote to undermine the doubt. And one is to investigate. The opposite of doubt is actually investigation. Because doubt is this way we're like disconnected and we're not sure. But if you're not sure, you can lean in, kind of like roll up your sleeves and like, "Well, what is it exactly that I have doubt about? Is it the teachings? Is it the teacher? Is it myself?" And just have this, bring some curiosity to it. Bring some curiosity like, "What is this doubt about?" And sometimes that can help instead of this vague thing like, "Yeah, I'm not sure." "What is it that you're not sure about? What are you sure about? Are there some things you do have confidence in?" Maybe you've seen some of the benefits of meditation practice or benefits of loving-kindness practice, whatever it might be. So one way to an antidote is to just investigate.

Some people will say faith is an antidote to doubt. I would say if you have faith, that's fantastic. You can use that as an antidote to doubt. But for a lot of people, that's not so easy just to be like, "Oh, I'll just have faith." Maybe some people have devotional practices: chanting, bowing, these types of things. That can be a fantastic antidote as well. But investigation is an antidote as well.

Maybe I'll say a little bit more about investigation because you can also investigate just inquire directly, "Is this doubt?" You can just ask, kind of drop in that question. And then maybe the one way to answer that is to say, "Was there an uncomfortable experience that started this cascade?" Sometimes doubt gets fueled by a little bit of uncomfortableness, and then there's this disengagement, and then the disengagement justifies itself by saying, "Well, I'm not sure this is such a good idea anyway," and all these other things. But not always, but it's often initiated with some uncomfortable experience. So that might be part of the investigation that we're doing.

Or maybe we could ask this, drop in this question: "Do we have this view, do we have this idea that things should be a certain way?" "If this meditation practice were any good, I would be experiencing A, B, and C. And I'm not experiencing A, B, and C. Therefore, I'm not so sure about this meditation practice." There's these ways in which we bring beliefs and views into our practice, our expectations, of course we do. And then sometimes when those expectations aren't met, then there starts to be doubt. But maybe one way to work with doubt is to just investigate what are the expectations, what are the beliefs and the views that I've brought to this practice.

And then also, you know, drop in some of these questions and then we have to be open to finding answers. So sometimes those answers, if we're in the middle of meditation, we're dropping in questions, the answers will bubble up. Maybe they won't. But if we investigate and we discover, "Yeah, you know, actually I do have a specific question. What's this business about rebirth? I just don't get it." Or, "There's not supposed to be a self, but then who's getting reborn?" And then, you know, this is the usual question that comes up. I don't have a good answer that will satisfy any of you, just a heads-up about that. So be willing to find answers. Maybe it's reading a book, maybe it's talking to some other dharma practitioners, maybe it's talking to a teacher, maybe it's going on a retreat and having some extended meditation period. This is something that can help with doubt too. To not only determine what a question is, but be willing to find some answers.

And then maybe there's this way that with doubt again is being experienced as this hesitation. Maybe we could investigate this. We can settle back and open the question or ask the question, "What is happening right now that I'm not open to?" What is happening right now that I'm not open to? Sometimes, like I said, an uncomfortable experience can initiate a sense of doubt. And then whether it... maybe it's not even an antidote to doubt. Maybe that's just more mindfulness practice. "What am I not open to right now?" That just brings you right back into the present moment. "Yeah, well what is going on that I'm not tuned into, that I'm not... that I'm trying to avoid or I don't really want to pay attention to?" And that's mindfulness practice. So now maybe doubt's still there, but it's no longer a hindrance.

And then maybe the last thing that I'll say here is, maybe it's kind of an antidote that I spoke about a little bit, is to bring to mind, "What do I have confidence in with regards to this practice? What do you know that's been beneficial or what has been uplifting?" Maybe bring something like that to mind, maybe a memory. As I said, maybe some devotional practices, a way that kind of opens the heart and relaxes the mind, that allows you to be with whatever is happening. So then you're no longer hindered. You can be back into the practice.

So doubt often is masquerading as wisdom. It's telling you, "I don't know about this," and it's something that can cause us to abandon the practice or to turn away from it. So it's a hindrance that actually can be quite powerful, not only because it can cause us to turn away, but also because it's often not recognized. Or we might have this idea, "Okay, yeah, it is doubt, but I'm supposed to have faith." Some people think that faith is the antidote. And for some individuals, faith can be an antidote, but for others, maybe investigation is an antidote. And we know that investigation is a factor of awakening, and there we are right in the practice again.

So maybe with that, I'll end with doubt and open it up and see if there's some questions. We don't have a lot of time, I'm afraid, but is there a question about doubt that somebody would like to ask? Do you have doubt about doubt? Maybe you should doubt your doubt. That's actually the way forward. Just doubt more. Doubt the doubt.

Questioner 5: My question funnily enough kind of ties in with your "doubt the doubt" pun. How do you balance between like questioning things as you're trying to learn something new and kind of have to ask certain questions to build upon an incomplete understanding, with not wanting to ask too many questions that you're just always kind of afloat and without grounding? Like in saying "doubt the doubt," you do need some doubt, but you also don't need some doubt. So like, how do you strike that balance?

Diana Clark: Yeah, so the question is, is it getting in the way? Is it hindering? So do you feel like, "Okay, I'm disengaged from the practice and I find myself hesitating and vacillating?" Then that's something maybe to work with. But if you're feeling like, "You know, I'm not sure, but there's a certain willingness to still lean into the practice or to do the practice," then that's the doubt that's helpful and supportive for practice. Does that make sense?

Okay, so thank you all for your attention. And you're welcome to come up here and ask me some questions if you like afterwards. But I wish you a wonderful rest of the evening. Thank you. And then maybe I'll say next week will be a different format. We'll do a sit and then a talk. So we'll go back to the other format. Thank you.