This is an AI-generated transcript from auto-generated subtitles for the video Discernment and Refinement with Victoria Cary. It likely contains inaccuracies.

Discernment and Refinement - Victoria Cary

The following talk was given by Victoria Cary at Insight Meditation Center in Redwood City, CA on October 28, 2024. Please visit the website www.audiodharma.org for more information.

Introduction and Practice Q&A

In the beginning, I invited you to take a snapshot of how things were. I invite you again to take a snapshot: how is your heart, your mind, your body in this moment? This is such a simple practice to redirect the attention back to the present moment that we can do at any time. What is happening in the mind? How is the heart? How is the body?

One of the things that is important to me is supporting people in practice, in meditation practice. To that end, I am wondering if there is anyone new to the center? Is there anyone here for the first time? Welcome. This is my first time too—it is my first time teaching here. I was here many years ago, maybe eight or nine years ago, when I was a monastic.

At many points during our spiritual journeys or our meditation journeys, there are places that get a little sticky, aren't there? Maybe there are things that happen in our meditation where we think, "What do I do with this?" It can be difficult places in the mind, but also when our hearts start to open and expand, it can feel really uncomfortable. We might think, "What is happening? I remember this visceral experience I had of settling into practice and being so open. I don't want this; it feels so vulnerable." I had to go to my teacher and say, "What is this? What is happening? I don't like it. How do I meet it?"

I want to give a few minutes for a couple of questions. If there are any places in your practice that you noticed today, or maybe this week as you have been practicing, where there is some stickiness or something arising that you are not quite sure what to do with, or that is hard to meet? It might take some bravery in this group.

Participant: This wasn't recently, but I do remember sitting some years ago and a wave of rage crashed over me. I've always been afraid of anger, and yet, I survived. I didn't think that could happen. So I think there are a lot of surprises.

Victoria Cary: In practice, there are so many surprises. Thank you.

Participant: My mind often is racing at 100 miles an hour. I try to sit comfortably and let that happen. I think where I get a little stuck—maybe you can help me—would be trying to understand when I am sitting and letting these thoughts roll one after the other through my mind at a pace. I feel that I am one-upping myself in a certain sense. I am observing with kindness these ideas that are rolling through my mind. I am trying to understand a little bit: who is the observer? Am I just one-upping myself?

Victoria Cary: "Who is the observer?" It is such a good question. I think there are some questions that are "living questions," which is teacher-speak for saying I am not going to answer the question. But what I will do is suggest you watch the mind getting caught in trying to figure out who the observer is while you are practicing. Can we simply know, "Oh, there is something, someone that we are calling 'observer' knowing the arising of experience"? Knowing the thoughts arising, knowing what you are calling a racing mind.

Can you include it all? Can you include the trying to figure it out, and then come back to simply knowing direct experience? "Oh, thinking. Oh, racing. Oh, wanting to figure it out." Then we can go a little bit deeper and see, is there in the wanting to figure it out something that is uneasy in not knowing? Can we meet that with a lot of kindness? "Oh dear one, of course you want to know, because maybe this is a way that keeps us safe." Can I be in that dis-ease? In this way, we drop deeper and deeper and get to some discernment about how to be with, and some refinement in how to be and what to be with.

Participant: I have trouble sometimes giving myself permission to settle on one thing. When I am practicing, I will let the mind go at the beginning and see where it wants to settle. Then when it does, I have trouble saying, "It's okay to stay here and examine it closely."

Victoria Cary: What is the thought that you should be doing?

Participant: I think part of it is, "Is there something more important?" Or, "Is there something that is making me obsess about this in particular?" Rather than approaching it with more kindness and less judgment and accepting that it might be important for me to examine.

Victoria Cary: We won't know unless we check it out, will we? So there is that part. But also there is this indecision. We can call that a hindrance of doubt¹. We want to recognize doubt quickly and drop it, and then stay.

There might be something protecting us; maybe it is a little hard and we are not ready. We have to honor that too. If we are not ready, what can we support that will help us get ready? What can we incline to? Maybe we need to stick with some loving-kindness practice for a little while, and then go check it out.

Here is the thing with practice: sometimes we think we have to go to the, "I am going to fix myself. I am going to go into the hardest thing and I am going to make it okay by changing it and figuring it out and getting rid of it." Is that our practice? Our practice is to be with things the way they are—to meet them with a lot of kindness. Sometimes we are ready, and so then there are many skillful ways to go in and go out. We can go to someplace neutral in the body and just rest there and get some steadiness of mind, and then go check it out really gently. Then we can come back, or rest our attention where it is easy, where there is some peace or joy. I don't think it is such a good use of time to just go in and force it; it's not so kind.

Participant: How do you recognize when your mind is about to slip without giving into it? How do you recognize the mind is about to go into thought without indulging in that thought?

Victoria Cary: With a lot of practice. Watch if there is any belief that the mind is supposed to be doing something else, and any judgment about it slipping, and include that too. What does the mind do? It thinks. Thank goodness; it is so helpful for us to get through our lives. The mind will go off this way and that way, and our whole practice is recognizing when it has gone off and then coming back.

At some point, we take it as an object too. We can include all of it, but I want to say it is not a problem. This is what the mind does. Let's include that too. You can notice at some point, "Oh, it's about to go," and be like, "Whoop, nope." It also becomes less interesting, and then it is not like there is "us" doing it—the mind just stays. There is some steadiness that is a possibility.

Participant: Often times when I find my mind has slipped and I am not in the present, I like to trace my thoughts backwards to figure out where it got distracted. Is that helpful?

Victoria Cary: I think it is helpful maybe to know where it went and notice patterns—general patterns like, "Oh, planning." Then we can come back and notice, "Is there a worry here?" I think coming back to the body and saying, "Oh, what is here? What is the mind helping solve or avoiding?" is a more useful way.

Discernment and Refinement

It is so heartening to be here with you. I still haven't taught much in person, except at retreat centers. I teach at Spirit Rock, IMS, and another retreat center called Vallecitos² in Northern New Mexico. A lot of groups aren't in person yet, so it is really a joy to be in person. I don't take it for granted.

Something brought you here today. In the beginning of my practice, I was a seeker. There just was something that wasn't working in my life. I had a lot of anger, fear, doubt, sadness, grief, and depression when I started on my path. It wasn't explicitly a path to Buddhism initially; I found a church that I really liked, and eventually found the Dharma. It was always there in some way; it was very present in my life because my stepmom practiced Buddhism and had her Kuan Yin³ altar outside my room and would chant every day. But you know, as often happens with our parents' things, we think, "I'm not doing that." And somehow here I am, which makes her very happy. [Laughter]

Something brought you here today. Maybe for some of you, this is always where you come on Sunday morning. For some of you, maybe you are a little bit newer to practice; maybe a friend brought you and said, "Check out this thing called mindfulness." So there is something that brought us, and then there is something that keeps us here. For me, I reference this heart-opening thing that happened. It was on the first retreat that I went to at Spirit Rock. I didn't know what was happening and I didn't like it, but I knew something was changing internally—that I was gaining access to something that was good in the sense of non-harming, that was helpful and supportive to me being the person I wanted to be in the world.

I think it is so helpful to reflect on what keeps us coming. What is it that we are curious about in our practice, in our hearts, and our minds? Also, what are those edges? What are those places where we notice maybe we are not showing up in ways that are so kind or helpful, externally and internally? Our meditative practice can support us in this discernment.

This thing called mindfulness or awareness—hopefully you don't only do it here, but maybe that is where we start. Maybe for five years, we just come and this is our practice, and then it goes out the window the rest of the week. That is a possibility, and it is not a problem. I taught a retreat last year and there was a student who was pretty angry at the conditions of the retreat. The people that they thought should be there weren't there, they didn't like the silence, and didn't get the whole meditation thing. But yet, they were at a retreat. They didn't show up to everything; they kind of did their own thing. But they had lots of questions and they kept showing up.

They ended up living at a couple of different Dharma centers but still didn't meditate. Almost a year in, they said, "Okay, can you teach me how to meditate?" I said, "Okay, I will teach you how to meditate." I was excited. We sat down, tried a couple of different meditations, and I asked, "Can you just do this for five minutes a day?" Recently they came to visit me and said, "Victoria, for the last 40 days I have been sitting for 30 minutes a day." Something shifted. It took them a minute to get it. Their way in was through community; they went to live at these centers and got to know the people. What they were being shown is how people were living their lives, what their values were—that they were living with deep integrity and inclining their minds, their words, and their actions towards that which was helpful, kind, generous, and beneficial. That got them really interested. "If in this scene there are these good people that show up in ways that I want to show up, there must be something to this."

Then we get in there a little bit and we think, "Oh, this place is hard." I don't like this quality of my mind, or how the mind reacts to particular stimuli. Then we ask, "What do I do with this? How do I meet this?" Often I ask students when they notice something in the mind: "How did you meet it?" They say, "What do you mean 'meet it'? I didn't meet it. I just put it down. I went back to my breath." Is that helpful all the time? No.

We can start to notice as we refine our practice how we are meeting ourselves. How are we meeting these broken hearts or joyful hearts? It seems that sometimes people miss this part about how we are with ourselves. It is often so easy to be generous and kind and stand up for others, and not so easy to do this for ourselves. It all matters. On the cushion, off the cushion, we can start to stay here—right here, present with things whatever they are—more often. When we stay here with whatever is arising, then we have more choice. We are in real time meeting and responding to what is arising. We can't do that if we are not here for our lives.

Sometimes it is so difficult, so we have to find these ways to have some balance. There are so many mind-moments in a day. We can't ignore the ones where there is some peace, joy, kindness, generosity, and love—internally and externally. This is so supportive in our practice, this inclining to that which is wholesome and helpful.

My teacher is in Nepal. Has anyone been to Lumbini⁴? It is the birthplace of the Buddha. My teacher is very interested in what is happening in my practice. "What are you paying attention to? How long are you staying there?" That is part of it; every day there is a little refinement. Six days a week when I go with them, they are checking in about my practice. "Okay, just do a little bit more of this. Bring in a little bit more equanimity. Bring in a little bit more concentration. Okay, back off a little bit." There is that kind of discernment.

But what they really want to know is: what am I inclining the mind to? "Victoria, are there more kindnesses? Are there more wholesome states arising every day?" They are very interested in that because it is a supportive condition for me to stay present.

We can check at any moment in our day: what are we inclining towards? What are we feeding? Do you ask yourself these questions, like with that snapshot? "Okay, what is in the mind right now? Oh, I am being harsh on myself. Can I meet myself with kindness?" Do you think it matters? It does. Check it out for yourself, don't take my word for it. But it does. You matter. Be kind to yourself.

What are you cultivating? It can be helpful to remember we are not just doing it for ourselves. We are doing it for our communities, our families, our friends. We don't keep it—and you couldn't, even if you tried. "I am going to keep all this goodness for myself." No. The generosity comes out, the love comes out, the joy comes out, the exuberance comes out. Likewise, the frustration, the irritation, the judgment, the ways that we aren't kind—also come out.

I don't mention those things to judge, but we need to be honest. "Oh, what is actually here? Is this helpful? Is this kind? Is this beneficial to the world that I want to live in or not?" We have to be real honest with ourselves, not in order to beat ourselves up, but just to have the information so we know what we are working with. In the beginning, I knew I was working with a lot of anger and fear. I didn't know that there was fear there in the beginning, but depression, yes. I had to be really honest with myself about that so I could learn how to meet it and learn what the antidote was.

The beautiful thing about this practice is that whatever we are doing, whatever we are meeting or practicing, wherever we are on the path, we are deepening if we are paying attention. I often joke, because I like to wait for people to come into the room: "Oh, this is waiting practice." How often do you do waiting practice in your life? If we can stay there and hold it as waiting practice, then maybe it doesn't tip into frustration or judgment.

Or I drove down from the East Bay, and guess what? On a Sunday morning, there is no traffic. I got here so fast, it was amazing. There are many gifts of living in the Bay Area where we can practice patience; traffic is one of them. What are the ways in which we can integrate these principles that support us in deepening in our practice in everything? Can we catch it? Can we notice more often? The still meditation practice we do supports this steadying of the mind and supports interest in staying present with things the way they are.

Sometimes we are stuck in traffic. Can we know and meet the frustration or the worry about being late, and watch what the mind does? "Okay, I am going to be late, and then they are going to be mad at me..." My suggestion, and I would say the Buddha's suggestion, would be: actually, let's stay here with how things are. Okay, some frustration here, but here we are in traffic. Let's accept that and see what happens instead of making up a story about what is going to happen. Have you ever been late to something and you are meeting a friend, and you put so much pressure on yourself, and then they were late too? And it was perfect. You spent 20 minutes being hard on yourself for not getting out of the house on time, and in reality, it wasn't a problem.

Even if we can just get to actually meeting what is actually happening in real time, more often, with some kindness, we are making a lot of progress. Instead of lamenting the dream of the past or living in this made-up future. Maybe you had some idea about what was going to happen this morning and it is totally different. I had lots of ideas about things I was going to talk about, but this is what I am talking about. I kind of threw the script out the window. Can we stay here, and what happens when we do?

It was so fun to go into meditation, and then I heard people come in, and then I opened my eyes and thought, "Oh, more people! What a joy and delight." So what are we cultivating? Do you know what you are cultivating? Are you paying attention to what you are cultivating in this moment? Let's pay attention to that. What do we want to incline to? Can we incline to more generosity? To patience? To kindness? To compassion?

When we notice that that is not what is happening in our experience, can we not then be harsh with ourselves or cruel? Because then what are we doing? We are supporting cruelness and harshness. Let's meet ourselves with kindness, and then that is what we are doing; then that is what we are inclining towards. It is that simple. It is not so easy, but it is that simple.

At some point along the path, we wake up and we realize we have met our mistake with compassion. That is huge. Maybe not for you—maybe you just came out this compassionate being with yourself—but I didn't. Or we find we are stuck in traffic and it is not a problem. Or waiting in line is an opportunity to practice. "Oh wow, I get to practice for five minutes with this cacophony of sound around me." Then each moment is like a gift because we get to incline towards these supportive conditions that are not dependent on external conditions, but on internal conditions to support our deepening and awakening and refinement in our practice.

Closing Q&A

Participant: I found myself very "thinky" this morning. I would awaken to that fact and bring myself back with kindness, and bang, I was off to the races again thinking. I guess I feel like I am meeting the moment with kindness to myself, but it sort of feels futile in a way, that the inclination was just so strong. I even tried welcoming it in—"Come on in, you're here"—and I was just wondering if you had anything to say beyond sort of just keep on keeping on with that?

Victoria Cary: There are a few things I can say. Sometimes we just have to say, "Oh, we are not going to do that. That is not what we are doing right now. We are going to stay here." What is your anchor?

Participant: Normally my breath, but I sometimes find it productive to abandon that and just kind of go into an open awareness.

Victoria Cary: What were we doing this morning?

Participant: Perseverating on my breath, I guess, and not very successfully.

Victoria Cary: Is that where the mind went? Was it thinking about the breath actually, or was it in some thought world about the future or something?

Participant: It was in the thought world. I was reviewing this proof for the Pythagorean theorem⁵—the silliest thing.

Victoria Cary: When you came back with love to your anchor, did you notice in the body: was there any tension, or anything hard to be with, or any emotion? Was there anything that you were avoiding, or was there boredom present?

Participant: I was aware I was kind of being judgmental about my experience. I know that is not a good practice, but...

Victoria Cary: So there was judgment about the judgment maybe?

Participant: Yes, but then I was also kind of forgiving myself for that too. So it was busy.

Victoria Cary: It is sometimes like this. Then we can know what it is like to be busy. Can we actually feel the suffering of the busyness and feel the suffering of wanting things to be different than they are? What happens when we drop into, "Oh, this is how they are right now, dear one. This is hard"? Bring a lot of care into that.

The fighting it maybe isn't so helpful, but the resting and meeting in the suffering of wanting it to be different—now that is getting us somewhere. Can we meet that fully? And then the mind is off again, and then we come back, and then the mind is off. This is strengthening something. Do you think every sit that every teacher has is blissful? No. There is a way that we can observe the mind going and the irritation or agitation or restlessness of wanting things to be different, and include it. Can we include all of it? It is not a problem.

Participant: I sat earlier this morning too, and the second session felt like it was a little bit more meditative or inclining the mind in a more constructive way.

Victoria Cary: Let's be careful of thinking that there is supposed to be a certain state happening for you to be practicing. It is not about any state; it is about meeting what is actually arising fully in real time. That is the practice. That is always the practice. Sometimes the mind is all over the place and there is agitation and there is restlessness in the body and mind. Can't we meet that? That is the practice. It is not about a state. Sometimes states happen, sometimes calm happens. Trust me on this one: let go of that part, because that is just torture.

Dedication of Merit

I would like to dedicate the merit of our practice and our time together. Let's take another minute or two just appreciating our willingness to show up this morning—to show up to practice meditation, to hear the Dharma, to be in community, to appreciate ourselves for our willingness to meet things just the way they are.

May the benefits of our practice benefit us in our deepening and our awakening and our learning and our discernment, in our inclining to that which is wholesome and kind. And then may our practice be of benefit to all beings everywhere without exception. May all beings be safe and protected from all internal and external harm. May all beings be peaceful and happy and healthy and as strong as possible. And may all beings be free.

Thank you so much for your kind attention and for your practice.