This is an AI-generated transcript from auto-generated subtitles for the video Ajahn Sujato: “So they said to the Buddha …” Class 3 of 4. It likely contains inaccuracies, especially with speaker attribution if there are multiple speakers.

“So they said to the Buddha …” Class 3 of 4 - Bhante Sujato

The following talk was given by Bhante Sujato at The Sati Center in Redwood City, CA on May 22, 2024. Please visit the website www.audiodharma.org for more information.

“So they said to the Buddha …” Class 3 of 4

Thanks once again to the Sati Center for bringing this together and hosting it. Good day, morning, evening, or whatever is appropriate for all of you good people. I am Bhante Sujato, and I am here on the land of the Burramattagal people of the Dharug Nation. I pay respects to their Elders past, present, and emerging.

It is good to see so many people joining us. Joanie, Darlene, Esther—what time is it there? It must be very early in the morning, so that is dedication. Good to see you. Jillian is just down the road.

Today we are going to be looking at the third in the series of four suttas looking at the Buddha’s teachings as a dialectical response. The first one we looked at was the Daniya Sutta¹ with the wealthy rancher Daniya. Last week, we looked at the Vasettha Sutta², a classic beginner sutta giving some of the basic teachings of Buddhism, but also featuring an interesting dialogue with the Brahmin there that uncovered some different layers.

I know some people said that there has been a lot of content and a lot of learning. I guess we are in a glass-half-full situation right now because this week there is going to be a much longer sutta with much more dense information that you are going to have to pay attention to. But relative to next week, it is going to be a doddle.

The Assalayana Sutta

Let's have a look at the Assalayana Sutta (MN 93). I don't think I am going to read through the whole sutta this time because it is a bit long, and I am not sure if the discussion will actually reach the end of the sutta. We will see how we go. I won't try to rush it too much, but I will try to cover at least most of the points of interest.

Thus have I heard:

At one time the Buddha was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s Monastery. At that time around 500 brahmins from abroad were residing in Sāvatthī on some business. Then those brahmins thought: “This ascetic Gotama advocates purification for all four classes. Who is capable of debating with him about this?”

Now at that time the brahmin student Assalayana was residing in Sāvatthī. He was young, shaved-headed, and sixteen years old. He had mastered the three Vedas, together with their vocabularies, ritual, phonology and etymology, and the Testament as fifth. He knew philology and grammar, and was well versed in cosmology and the marks of a great man.

And those brahmins thought: “This Assalayana is capable of debating with the ascetic Gotama about this.”

So they approached Assalayana and asked him to debate. Initially, Assalayana refuses, saying, "The ascetic Gotama is a speaker of the Dhamma, and speakers of the Dhamma are hard to debate." They urge him a second and third time, reminding him that he has lived the wandering life and shouldn't admit defeat before going into battle. Finally, he agrees: "Nevertheless, I shall go at your bidding."

Historical Context: Who was Assalayana?

This introductory passage gives us some historical context. Assalayana is not just a random person; we have specific details. He is a talented Brahmin student, considered good in debate, has spent time as a wanderer, and is living in Kosala.

We can identify from Brahmanical texts another Assalayana who fits these details: Kausalya Ashvalayana. He is mentioned in the Prashna Upanishad³ (3.1). He was probably the grandson of the Ashvala of Videha who debated Yajnavalkya in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad. The character appearing here is probably somewhat conflated from these two figures, or possibly meant to be the same person as the Ashvalayana of the Prashna Upanishad.

In Prashna Upanishad 1.2, Ashvalayana was asked to live another year practicing tapas (austerities), brahmacharya (celibacy), and faith. In other words, to live another year devoted to the spiritual life. This mirrors the sutta, where the Brahmins remind him that he has lived as a wanderer. It is actually quite interesting to see these characterizations of the same person strongly in agreement across different texts; it is rare to find so many points of agreement between the suttas and the Upanishads.

In the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad⁴, we find a discussion with what is likely his grandfather. Emperor Janaka of Videha performed a sacrifice and wished to know who was the most erudite Vedic scholar. He offered a thousand cows with gold-tipped horns to the winner. Yajnavalkya simply told his student to drive the cows home, declaring himself the winner without debating. This enraged the other Brahmins. Ashvala, the priest of the Hotr, challenged him: "Are you indeed the best Vedic scholar among us?" Yajnavalkya replied, "I bow to the best Vedic scholar, I just want the cows."

Ashvala then interrogated him on technical ritual details regarding how the sacrificer goes beyond death. This dramatic opening highlights the culture of debate. The commentary notes that Assalayana prided himself on being the greatest Vedic scholar and was insolent owing to royal patronage. Although the Assalayana in our sutta is humble and urged on by others, we see the same motif of engaging in a contest and the question of worthiness.

These debates in the suttas reflect a lively community of debate in Indian culture at the time. One criticism the Buddha made was that people would debate just for material gain—like a thousand cows with gold-tipped horns. It was a public spectacle with a performance aspect, yet carried out in a dignified manner.

The Topic of Debate: Caste and Class

Then Assalayana went to the Buddha... and said to him: “Master Gotama, the brahmins say: ‘Only brahmins are the best caste; other castes are inferior. Only brahmins are the light caste; other castes are dark. Only brahmins are purified, not others. Only brahmins are Brahma’s trueborn sons, born from his mouth, born of Brahma, created by Brahma, heirs of Brahma.’ What do you say about this?”

Assalayana is referencing the system of four classes prominent at the time: Brahmins (priests), Khattiyas (aristocrats/warriors), Vessas (merchants/farmers), and Suddas (menials/laborers).

I translate these as "classes" rather than "castes." The history of the caste system in India is complex. In the oldest text, the Rig Veda⁵, you hardly find mention of a caste system until one of the late portions (the Purusha Sukta) which introduces the four classes.

Today, the notion of "caste" in India is an intersection between that four-fold Varna⁶ system and the system of Jatis⁷. Jatis are a much more diverse splitting of society based on livelihood groups (e.g., carpenters, cobblers). It seems the Jati system didn't really exist in the time of the Buddha. Genetic studies suggest it was introduced in its current form around 1,500 years ago, possibly via imperial edict. These systems change over time.

The Brahmin perspective was that they were purified because they were created from the mouth of Brahma—that is, through speech, through the Vedas. They saw themselves as the living embodiment of divinity, whose sacred role was to make the divine manifest in the world.

The Brahmins are described here as the "light" class and others as "dark." This seems to have a racial connotation. The Indo-European civilization (Aryans) arrived from the north and were generally fairer-skinned than the local populations further south. In the Ambattha Sutta (DN 3), a child is described as "black" (Kanha), clearly referring to skin color. However, we will see this concept challenged later in the discourse.

This privilege asserted by Brahmanical texts is still in operation today. The Indian diaspora is often viewed as a success story—CEOs of Microsoft, Google, Adobe, and even the Prime Minister of the UK are of Indian descent. They are often Brahmins. This implies that the privilege established thousands of years ago still grants access to education and networks today. Conversely, Dr. Ambedkar, who converted the "Untouchable" Dalit community to Buddhism, noted that their success is defined by surviving despite the oppressors.

The Buddha’s Response

The Buddha challenges Assalayana using a series of arguments.

1. The Ethical Argument

The Buddha asks: "Suppose an aristocrat were to kill living creatures, steal, commit sexual misconduct... would they be reborn in a bad place? Would this happen only to an aristocrat and not a Brahmin?"

Assalayana admits that the result would be the same for anyone, regardless of class. The same logic applies to good actions leading to heaven. Assalayana maintains his belief but is on shaky ground.

2. Practical Capabilities

The Buddha asks if only Brahmins can develop the meditation on Metta (loving-kindness), or if only they can wash off dirt in a river. Assalayana agrees anyone can do these things.

The Buddha then uses the example of fire: "Suppose a person from a 'low' class—a corpse worker, hunter, or bamboo worker—took wood from a dog's drinking trough or a pig's trough. Could they light a fire and produce heat?" Assalayana admits they could, just as well as a Brahmin using fragrant sandalwood.

These topics are chosen carefully. Metta relates to the Brahmaviharas (a pan-Indian meditation). Bathing recalls the ritual bathing to wash away sin (discussed in the Vasettha Sutta). Fire recalls the worship of Agni⁸. The Buddha argues that the divine fire can be produced regardless of who you are or the "quality" of the wood (lineage) you use.

3. Inter-caste Inheritance

The Buddha asks about children born of mixed marriages. If an aristocrat sleeps with a Brahmin, is the child an aristocrat or a Brahmin? Assalayana says they could be called either.

Then the Buddha uses a reductio ad absurdum: "Suppose a mare were to mate with a donkey... would the foal be called a horse or a donkey?" Assalayana replies, "It is a mule, it is a crossbreed. I see the difference in this case, but not in the previous cases."

The Buddha questions the rules of inheritance and purity of lineage. Underlying these views is an anxiety about paternity. Before genetic testing, one could never be 100% sure who the father was. Paternity affects inheritance—who gets the land and the cows. This anxiety fuels the complex rules about caste.

4. The Twins Experiment

"Suppose there were two brahmin students who were brothers, born of the same mother. One was an educated reciter but unethical, while the other was not educated but ethical. Who would brahmins feed first at a sacrifice?" "They would feed the student who was not educated but ethical."

This might be the world's first "twins experiment." The Buddha finds common ground—the value of recitation—and then challenges it by introducing ethics. Assalayana eventually concedes that ethics override education or lineage.

The Seven Brahmin Seers and Asita Devala

The Buddha then tells a story from the past about seven Brahmin seers (Saptarishi) living in leaf huts in the wilderness. They held the view that "Only brahmins are the best caste."

This evokes the history of Brahmins as forest-dwelling sages, contrasted with the wealthy Brahmins of the Buddha's day.

In the story, the seer Asita Devala ("Deva of the Dark") hears of their misconception. He appears in their courtyard—dressed in magenta robes, wearing boots, holding a golden staff—and wanders around asking, "Where have those Brahmin seers gone?"

This is a provocative, theatrical entrance. He implies the true seers are gone; the current ones have lost their way. The Brahmins curse him: "Be ashes, low life!" But the more they curse him, the more beautiful and attractive Asita Devala becomes.

This "Dark Hermit" archetype appears elsewhere (e.g., Asita Kanha in the Ambattha Sutta, or Krishna/Kanha). It represents an outsider force, often associated with the south or aboriginal traditions, challenging the Vedic orthodoxy. The term "dark" (Kanha) links back to the earlier claim that non-Brahmins are "dark." Here, the "Dark One" is superior to the "Light" Brahmins.

The Anxiety of Paternity and the Gandhabba

Asita Devala grills the seers on their genealogy: "Do you know if your mother only had relations with a Brahmin? Or your mother's mother back to the seventh generation?" They admit they do not know.

Then he asks about conception: "Do you know how an embryo is conceived?" They reply: "When three things come together: the mother and father come together, the mother is in the fertile phase of her cycle, and the gandhabba is present."

This passage is famous (also found in MN 38), often cited as the Buddhist theory of rebirth. However, it is presented here as Brahmanical doctrine.

The Gandhabba The term gandhabba (Sanskrit: gandharva) is often translated as a fairy or celestial musician. However, its roots are deeper. It relates to the "man on horseback," a symbol of Indo-European military power and male potency. In the Atharvaveda, the Gandharva is called the "father-begetter."

In the Brahmanical worldview, the gandhabba represents the element of male sexuality in procreation. There was a belief that the "seed" of a woman's past lovers remained within her womb, "possessing" her. These past influences (Ghandarvas) had to be ritually removed (exorcised) during the marriage ceremony so the new husband could father the child. If not, the paternity would be in doubt.

When the text says the gandhabba must be present, it is evoking this complex anxiety about paternity and the need for ritual purification to ensure the child is truly of the father's lineage.

The seers admit they don't know if the gandhabba present at their own conception was a Brahmin, Aristocrat, or Menial. Therefore, they don't truly know what they are.

Conclusion

Asita Devala chides them: "You don't even know your own genealogy... when you and your tradition do not so much as pick up the last spoonful."

This refers to a specific ritual (likely the Sthalipaka or a seasonal Saka ritual) where the very last spoonful of rice is offered with the invocation: "Full, O spoon, fly off and fly back to us well filled." It is a rite of continuity, ensuring prosperity returns after winter. The implication is that these Brahmins cannot even maintain the simplest rites of continuity, let alone assert the continuity of caste over generations.

Assalayana, defeated by logic and myth, sits silent and dismayed. He then says, "Excellent, Master Gotama," and goes for refuge.

This sutta takes us on a journey through ethics, biology, and deep mythology, revealing that the rigid caste boundaries asserted by the Brahmins were contested even within their own tradition.