This is an AI-generated transcript from auto-generated subtitles for the video Chaplaincy Series: Right Listening -- The Chaplain's Empathic Stethoscope with Pamela Ayo Yetunde. It likely contains inaccuracies, especially with speaker attribution if there are multiple speakers.

Right Listening — The Chaplain’s Empathic Stethoscope - Pamela Ayo Yetunde

The following talk was given by Pamela Ayo Yetunde at The Sati Center in Redwood City, CA on November 05, 2023. Please visit the website www.audiodharma.org for more information.

Introduction

Vanessa: Good morning, everybody. Nice to see you all here, and welcome to the November event of the Buddhist Chaplaincy Speaker Series. This morning, I'm delighted to welcome Pamela Ayo Yetunde joining us today. Ayo is a Community Dharma Leader, a Zen student, a chaplain, a pastoral counselor, and a pastoral care instructor. She is the principal co-founder and editor-in-chief of the Buddhist Justice Reporter, and she's also the author of the book Casting Indra's Net: Fostering Spiritual Kinship and Community. She is also the co-editor of the book Black and Buddhist: What Buddhism Can Teach Us About Race, Resilience, Transformation, and Freedom, as well as other books and articles. She is an associate editor with Lion's Roar. Right now, Ayo is also working on a novella and a film project called Bird Song. Ayo is a former participant of the Sati Center's Buddhist Chaplaincy training from 2003 to 2004, so really one of the first to go through the program, probably in its second or third year. So, a good morning and welcome. I'll pass it over to you.

Pamela Ayo Yetunde: Okay, Vanessa, thank you. First, I want to say thank you to Vanessa for inviting me to be a part of this conversation, and thank you for the work that you've done to further the mission.

(Ayo adjusts her camera view) [Laughter]

All right, so you can see this is the mood I'm in right now. I'm silly. I'm kind of loopy too, I'll explain that in a moment. But I was expressing my gratitude to Vanessa and to the Sati Center for continuing this work. It's been decades—well, some would say it's been centuries across continents, and now in this form, open to the public whether you identify as a Buddhist practitioner or not. That's the beauty of the vow, the practices, the generosity, and non-discrimination—that everybody's welcome and everyone can potentially benefit from these teachings. So thank you, Vanessa, and thank you to Sati for allowing me to be taught almost two decades ago by Jennifer, Gil¹, Paul, and Diana Lion. So here we are, and I see some familiar faces; that always makes me feel comfortable.

I want to start by saying that over these last several years, I have come to the conclusion that we need to treat each other as the kinfolk who we are to each other. We are related to one another; we can be adopted family to each other if we choose to be. I think recent events show us the consequences of when we begin to not recognize each other for the kinship that we can have with each other. It can have very dangerous consequences. So, I'm going to talk to y'all like family. Talk to me like you are family to me, and hopefully, we'll have a good time with each other.

What else do I want to say? I'm tired. I'm going to be real. I'm tired because I've had the most extraordinary month. Starting on October 5th, I went to Portugal for a 10-day vacation, came back, had two days in Chicago where I live, and then left for New York City to co-lead a Zen retreat for a few nights. Then I went to Norfolk, Virginia, to celebrate my father-in-law's 80th birthday party. Then I went to Boston to speak at Harvard Divinity School with the former mayor of Chicago, Lori Lightfoot, and then back to Chicago. Yesterday I gave an online presentation for Stanford University's Contemplation by Design event. So, can you resonate with me when I say that I'm tired? And I've been talking a lot. Thank you. Hopefully, with your resonance, you will also give me grace and accept the invitation that I'm going to offer you right now, which is to be in conversation with me very early on, so I'm not just going to talk at you.

Right Listening — The Chaplain’s Empathic Stethoscope

I told Vanessa that the subject of the presentation today would be "Right Listening: The Chaplain's Empathic Stethoscope." I want to say a little bit about where this concept of right listening came from.

Recently, as you can probably tell if you've been paying attention to world events, especially in the United States, we don't put a value on listening. The people who are supposedly the exemplars of how we can be, who we can be, and what we need to be for our collective survival are not showing the value of deep listening to each other.

This really struck me when I was watching the first impeachment trial that Trump was put on. You had people on two sides. They would come forward, read their statement for a minute or two, and then the person from the other party would do the same thing. There was never any indication of someone saying, "You know what, I heard you, and now I'm going to change my statement," or "I never thought of it that way, let me reflect more deeply on the position I was in." I watched the whole thing and I felt exhausted by the end of it because there was a lack of dialogue. There was no one seemingly willing to change their view about anything.

This is just one symptom of the problem, but as we can see, if you're paying attention, this unwillingness to listen to each other is just deepening to such an extent that it is part of our culture. To listen to another, I guess, means that we are weak, that we're not convinced of our beliefs or positions, that we are the enemy if we listen to someone else who has a different position. The arrogance, narcissism, and ignorance are all part of that. It is very dangerous to not listen to others, because how will we know what decisions to make if we're only relying on our own knowledge?

So, I've been reflecting on these things and reflecting on spiritual care—what that means and how to offer it in these times. I was thinking about the Noble Eightfold Path². As I was thinking about it as it has been offered to me, and as it is conservatively constructed—or foundationally—on its face, it does not appear to be relational. The Noble Eightfold Path, as it is usually presented, is about our own liberation, our own relief from suffering, the things that we need to do as individuals to experience Nirvana, enlightenment, and so on.

I thought, is it possible that the Noble Eightfold Path could be used as an inspiration to think about listening as a path to the relief of suffering—not only our own relief but the relief of those we work with? What would it mean to engage in "Right Listening" as a path factor?

Reflections and Q&A on Listening

At this moment, I would like to invite anyone who wants to jump in to say something about your thoughts about what it means to listen: what you experience when you listen, how you choose who you're going to listen to, what you're listening for, what impact it has on you. Also, what is the listening that you feel you need to do to do the work that you're doing in offering Buddhist care, spiritual care, or presence, however you define it?

Sylvie: I actually attended your talk at Stanford yesterday. Maybe that's why I'm eager! But I was very curious about the "Listen Up" practice that you shared yesterday with eight steps. Then I realized you're speaking today about the Eightfold Path. Does that relate, and are you going to share that today? Because I felt it was very powerful.

Pamela Ayo Yetunde: Sylvie, thank you. You've exposed me! Yesterday, in a more secular context, I referred to this as "Listen Up" or "Listen Upward" practice. In a Buddhist context, I'm calling it "Right Listening," and Sylvie is right—it's the same thing. Yes, we're going to talk more about that today, and I'm hoping actually that we might co-create something together.

Heidi: I think sometimes when I listen—even in a text message, when somebody writes something—I see myself in it. For "Right Listening," what I hear just now is trying to not attach myself to what that person is sharing. Just seeing those words—that's the person sharing those words, it has nothing to do with my judgment or my story. To fully just see what that person has shared in those words; it's not a reflection of me, it's a reflection of them.

Pamela Ayo Yetunde: So you see yourself in it first, and then you come to the awareness that it's not about you, and you do something to reorient your consciousness. Do you know what it is that you do to make that possible?

Heidi: I think it depends on different contexts. Giving it some space of almost not reflecting on it. I try not to think about it. And also, I'm working on not clinging, which is a difficult one at the moment for different reasons. Not clinging to defining the vocabulary.

Latisa: When I think of "Right Listening," the first thing that comes to mind is Right Speech. Although Right Speech is usually positioned as a list of don'ts, I think of those as almost a floor: here's how you speak in ways that are not harmful. When I think about real Right Speech, it should be ways of being helpful, of being generous, and you can't do that without Right Listening. Right Listening is the way that you really enter into relationship, and it should inform your speech in a way that is helpful and liberative for the person hearing it. Of course, it's our goal not to do harm, but really as chaplains, caregivers, and humans, our real goal is to heal each other.

Pamela Ayo Yetunde: Thank you, Latisa. What we're doing is thinking imaginatively. Some people might call it theology; I'll call it Buddhology. We are taking what was written so many years ago as a foundation, and applying it in ways that go beyond the script. I find this juicy. I am not dogmatic.

Andrew: Ideally, I feel like listening is an active activity that you have to consciously tell yourself to do. For me, that involves ideally not spending my time, when I'm listening to somebody, thinking of what my retort is going to be, or what my agenda is, or what my reply is going to be, but just being present in the activity of hearing what the other person is sharing with me.

Pamela Ayo Yetunde: Thank you, Andrew. "Ideally"—I hear the emphasis you put on that word. We're not perfect. We do hear things we don't want to hear, and sometimes the time is not right for us to receive all that someone's bringing. But I go back to the saying: that's why they call it a practice. We keep doing it.

Nancy: I just returned from a trip where I saw three of my nieces. Two of them are college students in their 20s, and one is in her mid-30s. I was struck by all the turmoil in their lives—the existential questions they are facing. I went through the chaplaincy program in 2020, and I found myself switching into chaplaincy mode of listening with them. For me, that meant listening for how they've coped with the various issues and what they found supportive, so that I could reflect that back to them. My one niece showed me the church on her college campus and said, "I'm not religious, but I believe in my grandmother who just passed, and so I go to the church to talk to my grandmother and sometimes cry." I thought that's a beautiful way of coping. Just reflecting back to her: "See what you've done that's come from within to help you meet this challenge." I was thinking, I don't have the answers for any of them, but maybe I can help them recognize the inner strength they have to cope with these things.

Pamela Ayo Yetunde: Nancy, you said you switched into "chaplaincy mode." What mode were you in before, how did you switch, and what does chaplaincy mode look like?

Nancy: The mode I was in before was kind of a headspace—say, the challenge of infertility. There's a lot to talk about with medical issues and steps in the process, and there's no explanation. I realized there's no way forward trying to figure out the issue from an analytical frame. So maybe I was switching out of trying to grapple with the issue itself, to grappling with how my niece had struggled over four or five years, the isolation, the sense of self-worth. Hearing her from the depth of who she was rather than trying to fix the problem, because she may or may not wind up with a child. The issue is more how to come to a space of ease or strength with the not-knowing, the uncertainty. Chaplaincy mode for me was coming to a space of helping the person see an inner strength or what resources they have to come to a space of okayness.

Pamela Ayo Yetunde: Given what we know about the suffering in the world now, do you define yourself as a chaplain/spiritual caregiver limited to a particular context (like a hospital or prison), or do you see yourself in the world of suffering as leaning into this particular mode of listening more frequently?

Nancy: It's not limited to a certain context because there's suffering everywhere. I'd like to think that I'm leaning into it; I'd like to remember to lean into it more.

Pamela Ayo Yetunde: Thank you. I have been thinking about listening, suffering, and my own commitments—how I want to be in the world right now. There's so much going on. What sells is what gets reported, and all the many acts of kindness, love, and peace—people don't want to buy that, so it doesn't get reported much unless it's seen as an exception. I truly believe that throughout the world, most of us are doing good things, unseen and unreported. But the turn away from embracing what is true is so destructive that maybe individual acts of kindness are not enough to reverse the tide that we're on.

Back to not listening to each other: If our exemplars and leaders are examples of devaluing listening, where will we find the inspiration to listen? One of the things I've loved about Buddhist practice is the teachings around cultivating one's inner resources. To be that exemplar for ourselves, to keep reaching inside and utilizing the wisdom of these practices to be that person who is attending to the suffering of others. Listening deeply into the depths of someone and then mirroring back their strengths and our confidence in their ability to abide with not-knowing.

The "Listen Upward" Practice

I'm experimenting with contemplating Right Listening and the Noble Eightfold Path as an inspiration for exploring listening practices. One of the things I learned as a Sati student was to give a Dharma talk to a Buddhist audience and give virtually the same talk to a non-Buddhist audience. It's a great thing to do to be able to flex, to not lose your audience because they don't identify with the words you're using. I'm working on how to talk about the Noble Eightfold Path as an inspiration to listen more deeply, and calling that "Listen Up" or "Listen Upward."

Here is what the "Listen Upward" practice involves. Embedded in this thought of listening upward is that what's in the depths will arise. If I listen well, use right speech wisely, maybe over time what is underneath the surface will rise up.

Self-forgetting (Selflessness): In Buddhism, much of our suffering is based in narcissism, sometimes called "self" or "selfing." The very act of truly listening to another is like self-forgetting. This type of listening is a form of selflessness, and selflessness is in itself liberatory. You're not so focused on you, your own story, and your own suffering.
Removing the Intention to Hear What We Want to Hear: When we listen upward, we do so having removed the intention to hear what we want to hear. How many of us listen to only the things we want to hear? But we recognize through mindfulness practices that we have this desire, and we try to refrain from judging ourselves for having it, so we're not putting out that second arrow. Then we re-attune to the person and what is actually being said, while resisting the dynamic to reinterpret what they are saying.
Forming the Intention to Listen: By forming the intention to engage in Right Listening and be perceived as someone who's engaged in that deep level of listening, the person communicating has a much better chance of experiencing a sense of belonging. There are so many people experiencing the suffering of alienation and isolation. If we listen deeply, they may get a sense: "I belong to this person."
Patience: Many people struggle with patience when it comes to listening. People have told me, "You must be a special kind of person to do hospice work, you have to be a special kind of person." I don't think training makes one a special person. I think what they're really getting at is, "I don't want to hear that, I can't handle that much suffering." We have all been the beneficiaries of other people's patience. If we can remember that and say we want other people to experience that too, we can begin to cultivate patience.
Deepening Curiosity: What if a person is talking about the same thing over and over again? Right speech practices reflect back: "You know what, this issue you have raised a few times must be really important to you. Why do you think it's something you raise over and over again?" An intervention like that keeps you in the conversation, helps you deepen your curiosity, and helps you get into the depth of that person's consciousness.
Right Speech: Listening upward involves Right Speech, which means no unnecessary interruptions and no imposition of our own story to minimize or maximize another person's story.
Paying Attention to Suffering: Listening upward means paying attention to another's suffering, whether it is in the narrative, the body, or a combination thereof. Sometimes people tell a story differently with their body than their words. This kind of listening helps prepare us to hold the complexity, confusion, and frustration that arises when we are with people.
The Fruits of Mindfulness: Listening upwards is a practice that incorporates the fruits of mindfulness and meditation to help us be a non-anxious presence.
Interconnection: Here's the prize: what listening upwards can contribute to the goodies in Buddhism—enlightenment. It aids in our awareness of our interconnection.

Further Q&A

Diane: I appreciated what you were just saying about interacting with people who go on and on. A close friend of mine whose mom has dementia just spins and spins. When I try in any way to help her pause and tap into anything, she gets quite annoyed with me. She has a pretty big need to spin and is resistant to being invited to feel into what's really most upsetting. Do you have any strategies for when somebody's spinning and attached to it?

Pamela Ayo Yetunde: As someone who spins a lot and gets attached to it too, I'll say that for me, one of the things I've learned is that when I'm doing that, it's because I haven't spoken my truth to the person who I need to speak it to. There might be a question there: "Is there something that you feel you need to say to someone about this topic?" Also, there might be nothing you could say that would be perceived as supportive. We all make decisions about how much time and effort we are going to offer someone. You may make an assessment that really the most supportive thing you can do is just see that over and over again. You could ask, "How can I be most supportive while you're working this through?"

Sylvie: When you shared those steps and compared it to the Eightfold Path, would you actually match each factor—like one for Right Effort, one for Right Intention? Are they actually aligned to the eight steps the Buddha highlighted?

Pamela Ayo Yetunde: On the most superficial level, yes, but on a deeper level, no. I became convinced some time ago when studying in the Plum Village tradition³ that you can enter any of these path factors, and when you enter them deeply, you will be touching on all the others. You don't have to start with one or seven; just start where you are. My attempt is not to compare directly, but to say that these practices that have supported our individual being can be applied communally. Is there a way we can be with each other that relieves our suffering simultaneously?

Nancy: I wanted to share a quick experience. Yesterday I was on a phone call with an Anglican chaplain at Boston Medical Center, being interviewed to see if I might be a good match for working with patients there. He kept saying to me in the most gentle way, "Is there anything more that you want to say?" I found myself telling him about stuff that had happened in my childhood because he was such a beautiful, inviting presence. Also, regarding not reinterpreting what someone says—my whole life and education have been about interpreting. That's what I'm trained to do. I feel very poorly schooled in not interpreting.

Pamela Ayo Yetunde: Thank you for sharing that. "Is there anything else you would like to share?" is beautiful. Regarding interpreting, I'm not saying you need to unlearn the skills you have learned, but in this practice, there may be things we need to unlearn to begin to trust that someone can tell their story and their truth if we listen deeply, without us having to say, "Oh, this is what you really mean."

Liam: Something that Gil Fronsdal had said yesterday in his talk about making oneself a refuge for others really resonates with what you're talking about with listening. I see listening as being there for others and being a refuge for others to be heard and seen.

Pamela Ayo Yetunde: Liam, you and I are from the same school: Sati Center for Buddhist Studies. Of course that makes sense to me. Here's the rub: how long does it take for it to be perceived as a refuge? I'll leave it at that. Lots of gratitude. Thank you all.

Vanessa: Thank you, Ayo. Thank you for sharing the wisdom of your practice. You have a way of speaking from your heart that is so impactful. Thank you all for engaging today. Our next speaker series event will be on December 16th with Renjin Bunce. Thank you, everybody.